Vredesoperaties Voormalig Joegoslavie

[ronjhe]

Daarbij rijst wel de vraag: waarom nu?

Ik denk dat dit gewoon toeval is. Omdat nu net dit onderwerp in dit interview ter sprake kwam. Voorhoeve heeft zich hiervoor ook al meerdere keren zeer kritisch uitgelaten over de grote Westerse landen die betrokken waren bij dit conflict. Maar noemde nooit namen. Iedereen die een beetje op de hoogte was van het conflict wist echter wel over wie hij het had. Nu heeft hij dat blijkbaar een keer wel uitgesproken.

[Lex]

omdat dat in is momenteel, ik neem aan dat meneer ook een goedbetaalde baan in het bedrijfsleven wil of heeft, dan doen dit soort dingen het altijd goed.

Wikpedia:
Joris Jacob Clemens Voorhoeve ('s-Gravenhage, 22 december 1945) is een Nederlands politicus, oud-minister en hoogleraar.
Voorhoeve werd in 1979 benoemd tot hoogleraar Internationale Betrekkingen en Ontwikkelingen aan de Universiteit Wageningen. Vanaf 1990 was hij deeltijdhoogleraar Internationale Organisaties te Leiden.
In september 1982 werd hij lid van de Tweede-Kamerfractie van de VVD. Voorhoeve volgde in 1986 Ed Nijpels op als fractieleider van de VVD en bleef dat tot 30 april 1990. In januari 1991 verliet hij het parlement.
Hij was vervolgens vier jaar directeur van Instituut Clingendael.
Van 22 augustus 1994 tot 3 augustus 1998 was hij minister van Defensie Voorhoeve kreeg als minister met het Srebenica-drama te maken.
Van mei 1998 tot december 1999 was hij weer lid van de VVD-fractie in de Tweede Kamer.
Op 1 december 1999 werd hij lid van de Raad van State. Op 31 augustus 2006 maakte de Ministerraad bekend dat hij tot 1 oktober 2006 fulltime staatsraad zou blijven. Met ingang van met die datum aanvaardt hij een halftijdsfunctie als hoogleraar Internationale Veiligheidstudies aan de Nederlandse Defensie Academie (NLDA), waarbij hij tevens halftijds als staatsraad in buitengewone dienst aan de Raad van State verbonden blijft.

[oud_zijde]

omdat dat in is momenteel, ik neem aan dat meneer ook een goedbetaalde baan in het bedrijfsleven wil of heeft, dan doen dit soort dingen het altijd goed.

en voor de volledigheid, ook Duitsland en Rusland behoren tot het lijstje dat niet al te felle gevechten tussen de VN en de BSA wilde zien en dat rijtje is nog langer ook, zitten vrij veel (nieuwe) NATO leden in!

de enclave is gewoon opgeofferd met Dutchbat erbij, dan kun je een discussie aangaan of dit slim was of niet (eigenlijk wel) maar netjes is het in geenszins en er 1 partij (of dat nu Dutchbat of de VS is) voor de schuld geven ook niet. De Serven hebben het gedaan en 'wij' hebben het toegelaten ... punt

[Lex]

Tja, geen verrassende opmerkingen van de voormalige minister. Het zit hem blijkbaar nog zo dwars dat hij nu de landen bij naam noemt.

Daarbij rijst wel de vraag: waarom nu?

[ronjhe]

Tja, geen verrassende opmerkingen van de voormalige minister. Het zit hem blijkbaar nog zo dwars dat hij nu de landen bij naam noemt.

[ronjhe]

'VS traden bewust niet op bij Srebrenica'

HILVERSUM - Oud-minister van Defensie Joris Voorhoeve hekelt het beleid van de Verenigde Staten rond de val van de Bosnische enclave Srebrenica. Voorhoeve zei vrijdag in het VPRO-radioprogramma Argos dat de Amerikanen een beleid hadden om niet op te treden tegen een Servische aanval op de moslimenclave.

In 1995 werden bij de val van Srebrenica tussen de 7000 en 8000 moslimmannen en -jongens gedood.

Nalatigheid

Voorhoeve, die ten tijde van de val minister was, benadrukt dat de enige verantwoordelijken voor de massamoord de Bosnisch-Servische legerleider Mladic en de zijnen zijn.

Volgens de oud-minister hem speelt ook de ethische vraag mee of er nalatigheid is geweest. Hij concludeert nu dat er van Amerikaanse zijde geen bereidheid was om met luchtsteun de enclave te verdedigen en dat dit beleid werd gesteund door de Britten en Fransen.

NIOD

De oud-bewindsman pleit nu voor herziening van de conclusie van het Nederlands Instituut voor Oorlogsdocumentatie (NIOD) dat de aanval op Srebrenica, waar Nederlandse VN-soldaten waren gelegerd, niet was te voorzien.

Een woordvoerder van het NIOD zegt de uitspraken van Voorhoeve niet te begrijpen. "Dat de Serviërs iets slechts van plan waren, was duidelijk. Maar of het eerst enclave x of y zou worden, was niet duidelijk. Het hoe en wanneer was niet te voorzien. Zo is nog steeds niet duidelijk wie en wanneer het besluit heeft genomen om de moslimmannen te vermoorden", aldus de zegsman.

Luchtsteun

Bovendien wordt volgens de woordvoerder te makkelijk over het geven van luchtsteun gesproken. "Men had te maken met bergen, het weer en burgers die dichtbij waren. Over de Fransen werd bijvoorbeeld ook wel gezegd dat zij geen luchtsteun wilden verlenen om Franse gegijzelden niet in gevaar te brengen."

Verder wordt er volgens de NIOD-zegsman vaak ten onrechte van uitgegaan dat de moslimenclave een zogenoemde safe area was. "Als dat zo was, waren onze militairen beter bewapend en hadden er bij voorbaat tanks om de enclave gestaan om het met gevaar voor eigen leven te verdedigen. Het was een duidelijke keuze vooraf van de VN om Srebrenica niet tot een safe area te bestempelen en dat wist Nederland."

[oud_zijde]

Gorazde fell the day operation Deliberate Force began

ok, technically it did not fall but the Brittish forces left in the middle of the night, why?
Because the Bosnian army made their lives a living hell without them being able to do something about it (protect the muslims and all that).
they did not feel comfortable around the Bosnians whose luck was about to change ... you have to wonder why that is if they were all disarmed and peaceloving peoples

additionally these arguments allways convieniantly leave out the Bihac enclave that fell to the Croat/BiH offensive killing scores of Serbs that simply could not get away in time

[Mourning]

Sorry, but i not agree on this. The hostage taking of de UN-peacekeepers made attacks impossible. That was the clear conclusion. Because the big countries with de US in de lead now were planning some military action to create the basis for a peace-agreement and solution, they saw they had to get rid of the enclaves. Because that were easy hostage-taking places for the Serbs by large-scale attacks. That was the reason i think why they did not react when Srebrenica was taken. Probably even signaled the Serbs that was ok. After the enclaves were gone or under better control and all UN-peacekeepers in safe areas, the attacks could start.

I would be VERY interested in your source(s) with regards to particularly the US selling out the "Safe Havens". One thing must be corrected though and puts your theory at doubt ... NOT all three of the eastern Bosnian enclaves were taken. Gorazde is the exception. That might have had something to do with the Croat, Bosnian Croat and Bosnian governments offensives putting a serious strain on the Bosnian Serb Army (BSA), but I seriously doubt that.

I also would like to comment, a little off-topic here about something that irritates the S*** out of me and that is WHATEVER happens on this planet the West virtually always and automatically gets a big part of the blame. The above is an example, a better example is people saying the US practically "deserved" 9/11 given its foreign policies of the past decades and then our Bosnian friend in his post pointing towards the West not doing anything in Darfur.

Well, excuse me, but we only have so many troops with all the missions around. Where are the Indians, Indonesians, Brasilians, the Russians, etc., etc. Not to mention the Islamic world whoms brothers mainly are the ones doing the killing in Darfur. Where are they with their short tempers now?

Ok, sorry, had to get this off my chest.

Regards,

Mourning

[ronjhe]

What was the reason to be on this forum is my intention that we learn together something important that bad things could not happen in future.

I agree that is a good goal.

I am sure, that everybody who was involved in Bosnian genocide (not only in Srebrenica, because Srebrenica came on the end of the war 1995!) must be faced to justice.

I agree. But the sad reality is that this will never happen. As always, most will not face trial. 

As I wrote earlier, it was a Yugoslavian state's project helped by domestic Serbs militias and paramilitary's units. UN just helped to be done by UN doing nothing.

The Serbian Academy for Science and Arts, the Writer Society, the Orthodox Serbian Church, politicians, parties, 99 percent of the common people were involved in the Great Serbia project that plunged Balkans in a bloodshed.

I not completly agree with you. During my study i was always warned by my professor for intellectuals. They were the ones who make these "big political ideas". Who often transformed into bloodshed and dictatorship. But in this conflict it were not only the Serbs with these ideas. There were more intellectual groups in different parts of the country with ideas about independence or bigger "great projects". In Slovenia they wanted to become independent and their move (referendum) was the start of the conflict. In Croatia they followed, wanting to creata a "Great Croatia", with also parts of Bosnia and the Croats living there involved. In Serbia they wanted first to keep Great Yugoslavia with Serb dominance, but when that failed they looked for Greater Serbia. But also in Bosnia de moslim intelligencia wanted a own moslim state. So no Varcar Vakuf, on this i not totally agree with you. Not only the Serbs were to blame here. Only the fact they dominated the Yugoslavia Army and so had most of the weapons made their role so dominant and brutal. But when the Yugoslavian Army was mostly Croatian, then the Croats had done the most harm. As they did anyway. But i agree, that those intelligencia with those ideas you have to check out closely. Especialy in countries with many culturale or religious groups and a bad economy. We now see the same happening in Iraq.

Mr. Clinton called Milosevic, who was the head of the Great Serbia project, as a "Balkans' butcher", but Mr. Clinton considered him as the most important peacemaking negotiator. In the 2002, Serbian Government sent Milosevic in Schewningen, but not because of his responsibility for committed war crimes and genocide, but because Milosevic did not win wars and created Great Serbia.

Milosovic was a opportunist. I don't believe he was a reall "great Serbia"-believer. He used that to get in power and to stay in power. I think he was not responsible for all the killings but did not prefent it either. But the fact the Serbs had the most arms did them play the prominant role and do the most harm. But by ideas Dr. Franjo Tuđman, former leader of Croatia during the war was as bad as Milosovic. 

When NATO in 1995, bombed some Bosnian Serbs positions, it was not intention to protect Bosnian state and its attacked citizens that were exposed to Serbian brutal aggression and genocide, but because Serbs militants humiliated UN peacekeepers! When international community watched it on TV UN soldiers tied to polls, it was more than enough for NATO to intervene.  Srebrenica genocide could not set in motion NATO planes, NATO soldiers, but the UN peacekeepers humiliation caused by Serbs - did.

Sorry, but i not agree on this. The hostage taking of de UN-peacekeepers made attacks impossible. That was the clear conclusion. Because the big countries with de US in de lead now were planning some military action to create the basis for a peace-agreement and solution, they saw they had to get rid of the enclaves. Because that were easy hostage-taking places for the Serbs by large-scale attacks. That was the reason i think why they did not react when Srebrenica was taken. Probably even signaled the Serbs that was ok. After the enclaves were gone or under better control and all UN-peacekeepers in safe areas, the attacks could start.

The genocide is proven on ITCY in the Hague (Krstic case.)
Bosnian state sued Yugoslavia (Montenegro and Serbia) for aggression on the International Court for Justice in The Hague. It is the only way that Rrepublika Srpska could be dismantled and that Serbs pay the damage legally.

I agree that it would be better Bosnia and Herzegovina will become an etnic mixed state again. But i think the Bosnian Serbs have the same right as the Bosnian Moslims and Bosnian Croats to feel not safe and ready for that. Time will tell if this will happen. I hope the international community will stay there and keep control as long as is needed. Otherwise i think all the hate and distrust will be enough to restart the war again.

Even 15 years after committed genocide, you can hear on football games between Serbia and Bosnia teams even in Sarajevo how thousands Serbs team fans unanimous chanting slogans: "Knife - cable – Srebrenica!"   
(Many Muslims were tied by cable and killed by using knives in Srrebrenica genocide.)

Ye, that feeds my worry that when the High Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina will leave in 2007 troubles will start again.

Because Bosnian killers were decorated by having own state in a half Bosnia, because  UN peace keepers were decorated for doing nothing to protect itself proclaimed "safe" zone, because of fact that war crimes are still at large, it is a good signal for genocide in Darfur, for example. 

There is many similarity and connection to Bosnia, even there are in Sudan Muslims who kill innocent people so that 250.000 people already died and the genocide is raging there The West won't intervene. The West leaders told us there is nothing they can do!

Frahema, a place in the desert, is a home of 19.000 refugees from Darfur who lives in miserable conditions..

"If we had had guns, we would be never killed or living like this", said a man living there.

I agree the signals this non-interventions give are not good. You forget the genocide in Rwanda. I feel sade that the focus and development of international law, international courts and the UN has halted and deteriated the last years by selfish behaviour of a number of big countries in this world. I feel sade the reality is still that economic interest are the decisive factors for a invervention or not. 

I conclude: It is a sacred right to defend itself if you are attacked.
A sacred obligation is to protect the people who are not protected.
This must be intention every human being because regulated by every domestic and international law and UN conventions.

There must not be medals for doing nothing in that way.

I agree. But sadly, the reality in this world are different. I felt this obligation when i was very young. I made plans and maps of a country who was helping the not protected people in the world. I fantasised about the actions this country took. I was full of idealism when i choose my study, polemology. But i grew older and started to learn the realities of this world. I felt sick often by such a unjust and terror. I thought and hoped when i was a kid, that the biggest and strongest country in this world, the US, would be the country i dreamed of. The helper of the poor and defenceless people. I discovered quickly i was wrong. The beautiful words of our leaders about peace and prosperity in the world were often only empty shells i discovered. Seeing those leaders falling over eachother to say the most beautiful things, like if it is a game, made me sick. The Gulf war and the war in Bosnia made me decided to not go ahead with my profession. It was to much to bear. I decided to make my "world" smaller and be good for others on that level. And that is what i do today. But as you see, my heart is still full of spirit. So this forum i need to give that space from time to time.

[ronjhe]

Varcar Vakuf, Bosnia,


I appreciate for it.

What was the reason to be on this forum is my intention that we learn together something important that bad things could not happen in future.
I am sure, that everybody who was involved in Bosnian genocide (not only in Srebrenica, because Srebrenica came on the end of the war 1995!) must be faced to justice.
As I wrote earlier, it was a Yugoslavian state's project helped by domestic Serbs militias and paramilitary's units. UN just helped to be done by UN doing nothing.

The Serbian Academy for Science and Arts, the Writer Society, the Orthodox Serbian Church, politicians, parties, 99 percent of the common people were involved in the Great Serbia project that plunged Balkans in a bloodshed.

Mr. Clinton called Milosevic, who was the head of the Great Serbia project, as a "Balkans' butcher", but Mr. Clinton considered him as the most important peacemaking negotiator. In the 2002, Serbian Government sent Milosevic in Schewningen, but not because of his responsibility for committed war crimes and genocide, but because Milosevic did not win wars and created Great Serbia.

When NATO in 1995, bombed some Bosnian Serbs positions, it was not intention to protect Bosnian state and its attacked citizens that were exposed to Serbian brutal aggression and genocide, but because Serbs militants humiliated UN peacekeepers! When international community watched it on TV UN soldiers tied to polls, it was more than enough for NATO to intervene.  Srebrenica genocide could not set in motion NATO planes, NATO soldiers, but the UN peacekeepers humiliation caused by Serbs - did.
The genocide is proven on ITCY in the Hague (Krstic case.)
Bosnian state sued Yugoslavia (Montenegro and Serbia) for aggression on the International Court for Justice in The Hague. It is the only way that Rrepublika Srpska could be dismantled and that Serbs pay the damage legally.
Bosnian state president Mr. Tihic who is responsible for suit, did not ask the Court over Bosnian attorney to do that! Mr. Tihic refused suggestion the Mr. Francis A. Boyle, the American  professor doctor of the international law, to request the Court  to ask to dismantle Republika Srpska and to pay damage. Mr. Tihic even refused Mr. Boyle's offer that he as an Bosnian attorney on the UN Court for justice does his job voluntary (pro bono)!
What Tihic is doing is genocide repeating in a peaceful way. It is the salt on the opened wounds! It is decorating the killers an their Republika Srpska.

Even 15 years after committed genocide, you can hear on football games between Serbia and Bosnia teams even in Sarajevo how thousands Serbs team fans unanimous chanting slogans: "Knife - cable – Srebrenica!"   
(Many Muslims were tied by cable and killed by using knives in Srrebrenica genocide.)

Because Bosnian killers were decorated by having own state in a half Bosnia, because  UN peace keepers were decorated for doing nothing to protect itself proclaimed "safe" zone, because of fact that war crimes are still at large, it is a good signal for genocide in Darfur, for example. 

There is many similarity and connection to Bosnia, even there are in Sudan Muslims who kill innocent people so that 250.000 people already died and the genocide is raging there The West won't intervene. The West leaders told us there is nothing they can do!

Frahema, a place in the desert, is a home of 19.000 refugees from Darfur who lives in miserable conditions..

"If we had had guns, we would be never killed or living like this", said a man living there.

I conclude: It is a sacred right to defend itself if you are attacked.
A sacred obligation is to protect the people who are not protected.
This must be intention every human being because regulated by every domestic and international law and UN conventions.

There must not be medals for doing nothing in that way.